VAR

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Lord Rother
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VAR

Postby Lord Rother » 20 Jun 2019, 06:38

This is the biggest issue facing football for many many years so it deserves its own thread in this wasteland.

They are getting into dangerous territory now.

Imagine a WC Final decided by penalty shoot out.

Strike, scored, Team A celebrates and the fans go wild. Uh oh, an attacker encroached by 6 inches. Retake required.
Strike, saved, Team B go wild, but uh oh, the keeper was off the line by 2 inches. Retake required. Etc. Etc. It could go on for bloody hours!

Eventually the fans would just stop getting involved and celebrating as much - football does bring about major swings in emotions, but it needs the freedom and space for those emotional reactions after each significant mini event within the game, to fully engage the fans. Letting go of emotions at a goal only to have it disallowed is one of the most terrible things in life to go through after death and divorce! People hate the feeling of utter humiliation that goes with screaming and celebrating only to have to wind it in after 20 seconds.... even worse when everyone else spotted the flag before you.... we’ve all been there I’m sure. But in reality, that’s been a bit of a rarity. Until now.

If the inclination to celebrate the moment of a goal like a complete mental is reduced, which it undoubtedly will be in the current situation, then it WILL have an impact on fans and people WILL stop engaging in the same way and some WILL stop going / watching.

It won’t mean the total collapse of the game but the negative impact would be felt in so many ways. They really can’t afford to fcuk this up but that is exactly what they are doing and I think it is pretty amazing to witness it. Every game there seems to be another way to piss about with people’s emotions unearthed.

It may take a while for the dissatisfaction / outrage to build but somewhere along the line this is going to get really ugly for football because the negative impact of fcuking with people’s emotions will be considerable.

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Re: VAR

Postby Darkness_Fish » 20 Jun 2019, 08:33

I've been against the idea from the start, it's turning sport into high-tech pedantry. The very fact that it's called upon indicates to the referee that he's made a mistake, and from that the pressure is on him to make the intended call. It seems to lead to as many, if not more bad decisions than before it was introduced. It was shit in the men's world cup, it's shit in the women's world cup, it's shit in rugby league (dunno about the other code), the only sport it works for is in cricket, where the stop-start nature helps.

John Nicholson's tweet summed it up for me:
"Defenders of VAR will end up like defenders of Communism, desperately claiming it's never been deployed properly and that's why it doesn't work"
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Re: VAR

Postby Geezee » 20 Jun 2019, 12:59

only thing wrong with VAR is that it was not implemented 25 years ago.
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Re: VAR

Postby borofan » 20 Jun 2019, 18:25

It's only supposed to be used for 'clear and obvious' errors. That's not what's happening. Better off without it.
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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Jun 2019, 19:16

I'm a fan of the NFL. It has been used in that game unbroken since 1999, having had two separate trials during the preceding three decades.

American Football is a game that has completely natural breaks in play, where reviews can be looked at and decided upon before the next play, without any real issues. If ever a game was made for Video Review, it's American Football.

Twenty years on, and subtle rule change after another regarding video review, they still haven't got it right. Indeed, the NFC Championship game (the equivalent of a Cup Semi final) was decided by a review failing to overturn the most blatant foul (a pass interference non call on the pitch) that you are ever likely to see. That non call was the difference between the Saints and the Rams progressing to the Superbowl. Simple as that.

If the NFL, who have invested millions upon millions into the equipment and tinkered with the rules around review year-after-year, still cannot get it right (in a game that lends itself completely naturally to video review) then why does anyone believe that football is going to be able to do so? It beggars belief really.

By the way - the % of decisions overturned by video review over the years 1999-2016 years is 37%. The average time taken per review is 2 minutes 45 seconds, with an average of only 1.3 reviews per 60 minute game. Start extrapolating that into football and think of the amount of time that will be added to the game.

It's a no brainer - video review will absolutely kill the game and slow it down even more.

For reference : https://operations.nfl.com/the-game/his ... nt-replay/
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Re: VAR

Postby Jimbly » 21 Jun 2019, 23:16

Diamond Dog wrote: The average time taken per review is 2 minutes 45 seconds, with an average of only 1.3 reviews per 60 minute game. Start extrapolating that into football and think of the amount of time that will be added to the game.
/


David and I were at the Scotland vs Argentina game on Wednesday. First time I've been at a game when Var has been used. For minutes, we in the crowd had no idea what was happening as the ref stood with her fingers to her ear. Then VAR was flashed on the screen, penalty awarded. Penalty taken, saved. Another stop VAR again, penalty retaken and scored.

When the equalizer went in the stadium announcer flashed on the screen 4 minutes additional time except the ref picked the ball up and the game was finished. It's been calculated that there should've been at least 7 minutes additional time, 6 goals, 5 subs stoppages for VAR. Didnt happen.

This ref also allowed a free kick to be taken while Scotland were making a substitution.

I was for VAR being brought in, however I've changed my mind due to the experience of being at a game where it's used and the most important part of a game is ignored, the fans.

It's not sour grapes because Scotland didnt win, you cant be 3 up and lose 3 goals in th last 15 minutes or so. This ref cost both teams by not adding on the proper time. Only a win for either could have brought qualification, a draw suited nobody.
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Re: VAR

Postby never/ever » 21 Jun 2019, 23:25

The biggest issue I have is how VAR tips off referees after any incident occurring in the penalty area which initially is dismissed by the on-field referee and almost invariably means that that decision is reversed once the ref has a look.

Unless VAR also gets used to penalise divers and other cheating scum, it can stay in its box for mine.
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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Jun 2019, 05:40

never/ever wrote:The biggest issue I have is how VAR tips off referees after any incident occurring in the penalty area which initially is dismissed by the on-field referee and almost invariably means that that decision is reversed once the ref has a look.

Unless VAR also gets used to penalise divers and other cheating scum, it can stay in its box for mine.


That's the point though Maarts, you're right.

The criteria for which VAR could be used is absolutely crucial and no one really has the slightest idea what that criteria is. It seems to change from game to official and official to official.

As Jim says too, the fans (in football at least) seem to be treated shockingly - that theme of sitting in the stadium and not having the slightest clue what is actually being reviewed - that's unacceptable in every single case. The officials should know what they're reviewing - why can't that just be announced immediately. Or is it that, as I strongly suspect, the officials think something has happened and think they'll use VAR as a 'catch all' for every decision that may or has resulted in a goal? In which case, the game will be extended by 30 minutes or so each time, almost without exception.

In the NFL, there are very strict criteria for when replay can be used. And yet, 20 years on, it's actually getting more controversial, not less.

Football has to be realistic - look at live examples, in games much more suited to VAR that their own game is, and realise that it just isn't going to work in football - without many years of trials. And maybe not even then. The EPL is going to be carnage next season.
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Re: VAR

Postby Lord Rother » 22 Jun 2019, 08:39

I agree with all the above.

If it carries on as it has been fans WILL stay away.

Apart from non league I am an armchair fan and my mood about watching the Women’s WC has changed from enthusiastic to ambivalence, not because of the entertainment but because of my disgust at how VAR has been used.

I don’t like those feelings of disgust and frustration so just can’t be arsed to put myself through it when there are so many other things I can be doing with my leisure time. The effect will definitely be felt at the grounds as well in time.

Do FIFA have the remotest idea this is what is happening?

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Re: VAR

Postby borofan » 22 Jun 2019, 18:28

Lord Rother wrote:I agree with all the above.

If it carries on as it has been fans WILL stay away.

Apart from non league I am an armchair fan and my mood about watching the Women’s WC has changed from enthusiastic to ambivalence, not because of the entertainment but because of my disgust at how VAR has been used.

I don’t like those feelings of disgust and frustration so just can’t be arsed to put myself through it when there are so many other things I can be doing with my leisure time. The effect will definitely be felt at the grounds as well in time.

Do FIFA have the remotest idea this is what is happening?

Of course they do. But VAR is their baby, so it will carry on no matter what.
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Re: VAR

Postby Geezee » 24 Jun 2019, 21:54

borofan wrote:
Lord Rother wrote:I agree with all the above.

If it carries on as it has been fans WILL stay away.

Apart from non league I am an armchair fan and my mood about watching the Women’s WC has changed from enthusiastic to ambivalence, not because of the entertainment but because of my disgust at how VAR has been used.

I don’t like those feelings of disgust and frustration so just can’t be arsed to put myself through it when there are so many other things I can be doing with my leisure time. The effect will definitely be felt at the grounds as well in time.

Do FIFA have the remotest idea this is what is happening?

Of course they do. But VAR is their baby, so it will carry on no matter what.


Which is of course hilarious, because FIFA did everything humanly possible for 25 years to avoid doing anything about it. To me the bigger problems right now are not with VAR itself but the flurry of new laws that have suddenly come into play which for me are too harsh and petty. VAR won't make decisions perfect, or erase bad decisions, in any sport. But it does reduce errors, and I really struggle to believe that it will have a noticeable impact on popularity of live games (although granted i've only been to one, uneventful, VAR game so far).
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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 25 Jun 2019, 15:27

There is a certain almost Brexit like resistance to facing up to the issue regarding VAR, isn't there?


I'm really not knocking your obviously heartfelt opinions Geezee, but I'm producing facts here which strongly suggest VAR's downside significantly and disproportionately outweighs any potential upside. I've shown documentary evidence that shows even now - 20 continuous years on, from two previous trials- the NFL's VAR is unworkable. And has failed to over rule the most blatant 'non call' in playoff history even last season - despite lord knows how much experience, how many cameras, how many millions thrown its way. It's still getting it wrong big time - and all this in a game which lends itself so much more easily to the VAR system than football does or ever will.

Add on the fact that the NFL has been a sport which has embraced change readily - far far more readily than football ever has- and has tinkered endlessly with rules and (more importantly) the criteria for when VAR can/can not be used... and yet has got gradually more adrift of the original stated intention (to produce a faster, more correct game) as each season wears on. Surely this ought to be evidence enough?

VAR will simply never work in football unless :
a) the rules are changed to such an extent as to make it no longer the game we love (I'm talking the rules, not just VAR rules),
b) we accept a game where we are having five minute breaks every five minutes, and/or
c) we accept a sport whereby it can be called back to where it was five minutes previously, whilst any number of reviews are undertaken in real time, and that passage of play is completely erased.

I ask you - anyone in fact... who really wants that?
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Re: VAR

Postby ` » 26 Jun 2019, 09:44

While Pete may rail against my use of acronyms and frequently talks a load of BS (here's just one example - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=143918), this is one of those rare occasions when he's bang on the money.

It's ultimately damn near impossible to see any way that VAR could be made to work without ruining the flow of the game.

Even were FIFA to decree that challenges could only come from teams' captains/coaches/managers and were limited to - say - a maximum of two contentious refereeing decisions per bench per match, VAR would still leave room for gamesmanship/time-wasting tactics by the sides involved.

Trouble is, once Pandora's box is opened, it aint easy to slam it back shut.

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Re: VAR

Postby Lord Rother » 26 Jun 2019, 20:03

And now FIFA are telling the PL they HAVE to use the goalkeeper / penalty kick VAR next season which they had said they weren’t going to do.

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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 27 Jun 2019, 20:46

Lord Rother wrote:And now FIFA are telling the PL they HAVE to use the goalkeeper / penalty kick VAR next season which they had said they weren’t going to do.


To be fair, that has to be. You can't have different rules for different countries (well, unless you're Brazil, in which case you get everything just the way you want).

What is interesting is that they aren't going to book keepers who encroach.....so, technically, there is absolutely no limit on how many times the penalties can be taken.

It's that kind of not joined up thought that FIFA are so guilty of.
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Re: VAR

Postby Jimbly » 28 Jun 2019, 00:49

Except the Scotland keeper was booked for encroachment, so changing the rules midway through a competition. Shouldn't be surprised really.
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Re: VAR

Postby Lord Rother » 28 Jun 2019, 06:52

The overall percentage of goals scored from penalties is now going to rocket because of VAR, and that will be a terrible outcome.

More penalties awarded, fewer saved, and many of those that are saved will be retaken until they are converted.

Whole training sessions will be based around aiming for the hand as soon as you get in the penalty area. Don’t bother trying to make space to get the cross in, just hit it early straight at the player’s arm. A new way to become MVP.

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Re: VAR

Postby borofan » 28 Jun 2019, 19:04

Diamond Dog wrote:
Lord Rother wrote:And now FIFA are telling the PL they HAVE to use the goalkeeper / penalty kick VAR next season which they had said they weren’t going to do.


To be fair, that has to be. You can't have different rules for different countries (well, unless you're Brazil, in which case you get everything just the way you want).

What is interesting is that they aren't going to book keepers who encroach.....so, technically, there is absolutely no limit on how many times the penalties can be taken.

It's that kind of not joined up thought that FIFA are so guilty of.

Not booking keepers who encroach only applies in penalty shootouts.
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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 Jun 2019, 10:22

borofan wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Lord Rother wrote:And now FIFA are telling the PL they HAVE to use the goalkeeper / penalty kick VAR next season which they had said they weren’t going to do.


To be fair, that has to be. You can't have different rules for different countries (well, unless you're Brazil, in which case you get everything just the way you want).

What is interesting is that they aren't going to book keepers who encroach.....so, technically, there is absolutely no limit on how many times the penalties can be taken.

It's that kind of not joined up thought that FIFA are so guilty of.

Not booking keepers who encroach only applies in penalty shootouts.


Yes I was fully aware of that.
And, as I said, there is no limit on how many times it can be retaken, is there? If the referees don't have a mechanism to stop keepers encroaching - they can, and will, do it on every occasion.
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Re: VAR

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Jul 2019, 09:09

From the BBC today :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48903289

"Other areas of debate from the Women's World Cup include the new laws surrounding handball, but Riley does not believe it is a problem in England.

"I actually think handball is in a really good place in this country, and that's the message that we get from all the clubs - from the managers and the players - when we go and talk to them.

"We have a philosophy that says we want handball to be something that has an impact on the game.

"We are not looking for the ball to be striking arms and we do accept, when we are looking for what is an unnatural position for the arm, that arms move. We don't expect players to defend with their arms behind their back, nor do we expect forwards to try and drill the ball to the hand to win a free-kick.

"The way we've actually implemented handball for the past two or three seasons is the way we are going to continue to do it in the future."

He said, as an example, that the winning penalty for the Netherlands against Japan at the Women's World Cup would not have been awarded in the Premier League.

"We consider that to be a natural position of the hand. You don't expect defenders to have their arms glued to their side, so if the hand is in a natural position then it's not an offence," he said."

Okay well that's fine. But the fact is, in a World Cup Final, the officials gave the penalty!!
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