Why do England underperform at international football?

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Dr Markus
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 14:58

You are of course right G, i was talking about more modern football and should have highlighted that. Different era and different type of players. There was a story i read about a leeds defender back in the day, i think 70's, who was told his contract was up. He basically told the chairman to write something up and he'd sign it. Not many agents back then i'd say.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 15:00

Bleep wrote:It’s very easy to say “oh clubs should have better youth policies” or whatever. It depends entirely on the club set up and it can be very difficult to initiate these things.

If you have a business model that doesn’t have high margins, to have someone come along and say “well, you should invest in youth”, this means a huge amount of resource and expense for very little yield early on. It is a bold move that most clubs are not willing to take a risk on.

Plus, it is increasingly the case that the big clubs will have snared all the best players at a very early age – often as young as 6 or 7. Small clubs from, I would say, League One down simply will never have access to these players. There’s a young 16 old at Liverpool who’s been drafted into the Senior Wales squad and he joined from Wrexham at the age of 8.



Is there not some rule stating you can't recruit kids that are beyond 50 miles (using that figure as an example) of where you're home pitch is situated?
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:04

Bleep wrote:It’s very easy to say “oh clubs should have better youth policies” or whatever. It depends entirely on the club set up and it can be very difficult to initiate these things.

If you have a business model that doesn’t have high margins, to have someone come along and say “well, you should invest in youth”, this means a huge amount of resource and expense for very little yield early on. It is a bold move that most clubs are not willing to take a risk on.

Plus, it is increasingly the case that the big clubs will have snared all the best players at a very early age – often as young as 6 or 7. Small clubs from, I would say, League One down simply will never have access to these players. There’s a young 16 old at Liverpool who’s been drafted into the Senior Wales squad and he joined from Wrexham at the age of 8.


Indeed. My club, Bradford City, have a number of players knocking about the Premiership that disappeared off in their early teens.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 15:05

Bleep wrote:It’s very easy to say “oh clubs should have better youth policies” or whatever. It depends entirely on the club set up and it can be very difficult to initiate these things.

If you have a business model that doesn’t have high margins, to have someone come along and say “well, you should invest in youth”, this means a huge amount of resource and expense for very little yield early on. It is a bold move that most clubs are not willing to take a risk on.

Plus, it is increasingly the case that the big clubs will have snared all the best players at a very early age – often as young as 6 or 7. Small clubs from, I would say, League One down simply will never have access to these players. There’s a young 16 old at Liverpool who’s been drafted into the Senior Wales squad and he joined from Wrexham at the age of 8.



Well i did say that clubs would have to suffer too. Like i asked, does England have the patience to do this for the future of their players?
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:08

Every single player for England comes through a clubs youth system and always has been.

It's the quality of coaching at a very young age that's problem. By and large it's still the case that the physically largest players will advance at the expense of smaller player - in the much younger age groups.

It also makes me wonder why clubs aren't doing more to promote young players of Indian/ Pakistani descent - that's a massive untapped resource.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:09

Dr Markus wrote:
Bleep wrote:It’s very easy to say “oh clubs should have better youth policies” or whatever. It depends entirely on the club set up and it can be very difficult to initiate these things.

If you have a business model that doesn’t have high margins, to have someone come along and say “well, you should invest in youth”, this means a huge amount of resource and expense for very little yield early on. It is a bold move that most clubs are not willing to take a risk on.

Plus, it is increasingly the case that the big clubs will have snared all the best players at a very early age – often as young as 6 or 7. Small clubs from, I would say, League One down simply will never have access to these players. There’s a young 16 old at Liverpool who’s been drafted into the Senior Wales squad and he joined from Wrexham at the age of 8.



Well i did say that clubs would have to suffer too. Like i asked, does England have the patience to do this for the future of their players?


Patience to do what?
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 15:11

This kinda patience.

"Personally i don't think England has the patience to wait for the results of a total overhaul to help create and bring up world class players. Could supporters really sit by and watch their country and possibly their club do crap for a few years (Ten i'd guess on the international front anyway) while the new talent gets time to develop?

Genuine question. Would you be ok for England not to/barely qualify for the Europeans and the world cup and not get far for ten or more years?"
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 15:12

Tapiocahead wrote:Every single player for England comes through a clubs youth system and always has been.

It's the quality of coaching at a very young age that's problem. By and large it's still the case that the physically largest players will advance at the expense of smaller player - in the much younger age groups.

It also makes me wonder why clubs aren't doing more to promote young players of Indian/ Pakistani descent - that's a massive untapped resource.


I don't think you can solely blame the coaching although it plays a big part. Like Kevin Keegan said, i could pay over the odds for a young unproven player who has great potential or i can pay the same or less for an international who is proven and played at the highest level.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 15:13

Tapiocahead wrote:
It also makes me wonder why clubs aren't doing more to promote young players of Indian/ Pakistani descent - that's a massive untapped resource.


That's an interesting question. As a Bradford fan how many asian lads do you have in the youth squad at the moment do you know? Given the demographics of the city there should be a number.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:15

Dr Markus wrote:This kinda patience.

"Personally i don't think England has the patience to wait for the results of a total overhaul to help create and bring up world class players. Could supporters really sit by and watch their country and possibly their club do crap for a few years (Ten i'd guess on the international front anyway) while the new talent gets time to develop?

Genuine question. Would you be ok for England not to/barely qualify for the Europeans and the world cup and not get far for ten or more years?"


Well, given that my club has been crap for well over 10 years anyway that point is moot. As for England, I don't get why an overhaul of the youth system would mean that England would be crap for 10 (ish) years. Surely they would carry on bumbling through like they have been doing and then hopefully see the results at some point in the future.

I haven't read the whole thread, but there is a huge discrepancy between the numbers of qualified coaches working with kids in Germany and Spain and those working in the UK. Which I suspect is very significant.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:19

The G Experience! wrote:
Tapiocahead wrote:
It also makes me wonder why clubs aren't doing more to promote young players of Indian/ Pakistani descent - that's a massive untapped resource.


That's an interesting question. As a Bradford fan how many asian lads do you have in the youth squad at the moment do you know? Given the demographics of the city there should be a number.


None at all as far as I know and I don't think there ever had been

My 7 year old son goes to football training every week and it's about 50/50 white/asian. I've played against and with asian players all my life and some of them have been absolutely brilliant. I astounds me that the local club doesn't do more
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 15:20

They wouldn't be at the same standard because the "kids" would either be playing and therefore making mistakes that they need to make to improve. Or, the kids wouldn't be forced in to the national team early in their career and ridiculous pressure put upon them, to let them develop more on the local front. It's up to the coach to decide.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 15:25

Tapiocahead wrote:

None at all as far as I know and I don't think there ever had been

My 7 year old son goes to football training every week and it's about 50/50 white/asian. I've played against and with asian players all my life and some of them have been absolutely brilliant. I astounds me that the local club doesn't do more


I also live in an asian area and have taught enough asian kids to know many of them are really into football. I see the lads from Watford's youth team wander around the town and college all the time but I can't say I've noticed many asian lads among them. I don't know enough about how these clubs develop their kids to apportion blame, I'd like to think both Watford and Bradford are progressive enough to be aware of the issue, but clearly something's not being done right.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Oct 2013, 15:30

The coaching at primary level is the key - it's only through that being doing correctly that:

a) The talent is recognised in the first place, and
b) That talent is coached to bring the best from the player.

I'm sorry guys but we can argue as long as we want, but that is the essence. If you have ever read about the Ajax 'system', you would understand. They don't now play competitive football in Holland until they're 13, isn't it? That's a huge difference - no parents/managers standing on the sidelines, screaming at kids to 'get back', 'hit them early', blah blah blah. We've all seen and heard it (and maybe done it). It's that pressure to get results that stifles talent -the 'win at all costs' mentality. Managers choose physically mature players to batter the more precocious youngsters - and it works. The amount of players of Messi's stature who have been rejected in English football must be enormous - I know two or three youngsters from my little town who had bags of talent, but were deemed 'not big enough' to play at Oxford or Reading.

Shocking really.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:34

Diamond Dog wrote:The coaching at primary level is the key - it's only through that being doing correctly that:

a) The talent is recognised in the first place, and
b) That talent is coached to bring the best from the player.

I'm sorry guys but we can argue as long as we want, but that is the essence. If you have ever read about the Ajax 'system', you would understand. They don't now play competitive football in Holland until they're 13, isn't it? That's a huge difference - no parents/managers standing on the sidelines, screaming at kids to 'get back', 'hit them early', blah blah blah. We've all seen and heard it (and maybe done it). It's that pressure to get results that stifles talent -the 'win at all costs' mentality. Managers choose physically mature players to batter the more precocious youngsters - and it works. The amount of players of Messi's stature who have been rejected in English football must be enormous - I know two or three youngsters from my little town who had bags of talent, but were deemed 'not big enough' to play at Oxford or Reading.

Shocking really.


This is it really.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Tapiocahead » 11 Oct 2013, 15:36

The G Experience! wrote:
Tapiocahead wrote:

None at all as far as I know and I don't think there ever had been

My 7 year old son goes to football training every week and it's about 50/50 white/asian. I've played against and with asian players all my life and some of them have been absolutely brilliant. I astounds me that the local club doesn't do more


I also live in an asian area and have taught enough asian kids to know many of them are really into football. I see the lads from Watford's youth team wander around the town and college all the time but I can't say I've noticed many asian lads among them. I don't know enough about how these clubs develop their kids to apportion blame, I'd like to think both Watford and Bradford are progressive enough to be aware of the issue, but clearly something's not being done right.


I don't know what the issue is either. I do think that there are a higher proportion of Asians attending City matches, but for some reason nobody going into the youth team.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 15:40

I've always liked the Ajax idea of not ascribing a specialist position until they reach a certain age so that they develop all-round ability and awareness.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Goat Boy » 11 Oct 2013, 15:51

The G Experience! wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:I know youth investment isn't new but not many clubs did it and did it well,


I don't know about that. Growing up watching Arsenal I saw countless players come through the ranks, we didn't think it was anything unusual, you just took it for granted. Look at any Arsenal side from any given weekend from the 70s through to the early 90s and I can guarantee a good half would be guys that came through the youth side, and I think most teams were like that then


It's what teams relied on for years and years really both here and abroad. Things have changed a lot in this regard during the past 20 years or so - bosman clearly had an influence as well as, crucially, the scrapping of the foreigner rule - but it's noticable that some of the most successful teams - Man Utd, Barca, Ajax have achieved great things with a core group of players who came up through the ranks together with a shared footballing ethos.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Oct 2013, 19:34

The G Experience! wrote:I've always liked the Ajax idea of not ascribing a specialist position until they reach a certain age so that they develop all-round ability and awareness.



Yes that seems such an obvious thing but it is ignored in this country. As a centre forward (for instance) it must give you an insight into what centre backs don't like if you've spent some time playing there yourself. It seems obvious to me anyhow.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby KeithPratt » 20 Nov 2013, 08:54

I'm using this as the go-to thread for discussion on the England football team.

From last night

Cleverley, Smalling and Walker will be very lucky if they make the World Cup Squad.
Adam Lallana looks like he'll be making it.
God help us if Rooney or Gerrard is injured.
We're going to struggle to make the Quarters at the most.
John Terry should come back from international retirement.
Townsend seems to have the required confidence to play at international level.


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