Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

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der nister
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 15:46

I think there are overrated. Essentially bubblegum Tdream, who with their mid 70's albums, already penetrated African American market in US, before Kraftwerk. Creation of ambience with drums was not only Kraftwerk's doing. US of A, Silver Apples , and Mother Mallard, were already there.

Sad thing for all their "influence" all that has resulted is inert melodies that bitty bop nowhere and usually come off as muzak. Lots of irony, great joke played upon its buyers/fans and none of the passion that makes great music great( Stockhausen, Miles, Coltrane, Velvets, Beatles, Hendrix, etc)
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby doctorlouie » 17 May 2010, 15:57

zphage wrote:Sad thing for all their "influence" all that has resulted is inert melodies that bitty bop nowhere and usually come off as muzak. Lots of irony, great joke played upon its buyers/fans and none of the passion that makes great music great( Stockhausen, Miles, Coltrane, Velvets, Beatles, Hendrix, etc)


Really? I think their ability with a glacial mood and melody reveals a passion for that. Passion doesn't equal some kind of angsty expressionism. It can be elegant and measured, too.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Jeff K » 17 May 2010, 15:58

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The proportion of love is off from what I've seen elsewhere. I've been around plenty of folks who like 'em. Several who love 'em. But I've never been in any environment where they would be a top 5 or 10 most loved band.


I think most people here would still put the Beatles, Stones and Beach Boys higher. At its heart, BCB is still a very conservative forum.
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 May 2010, 15:59

zphage wrote:I think there are overrated. Essentially bubblegum Tdream, who with their mid 70's albums, already penetrated African American market in US, before Kraftwerk. Creation of ambience with drums was not only Kraftwerk's doing. US of A, Silver Apples , and Mother Mallard, were already there.


I don't know that, but I think their biggest influence was on Afrika Bambata with the whole Planet Rock thing and later Egyptian Lover.
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 16:04

brotherlouie wrote:
zphage wrote:Sad thing for all their "influence" all that has resulted is inert melodies that bitty bop nowhere and usually come off as muzak. Lots of irony, great joke played upon its buyers/fans and none of the passion that makes great music great( Stockhausen, Miles, Coltrane, Velvets, Beatles, Hendrix, etc)


Really? I think their ability with a glacial mood and melody reveals a passion for that. Passion doesn't equal some kind of angsty expressionism. It can be elegant and measured, too.


I agree, Dinah Washington, Ella, Sarah, Duke, Count, etc., have elegance and melodies.
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 May 2010, 16:09

Jeff K wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The proportion of love is off from what I've seen elsewhere. I've been around plenty of folks who like 'em. Several who love 'em. But I've never been in any environment where they would be a top 5 or 10 most loved band.


I think most people here would still put the Beatles, Stones and Beach Boys higher. At its heart, BCB is still a very conservative forum.



Not too many others would be rated higher.

I think the whole notion of "conservative" or mainstream vs out-of-the-mainstream you keep flogging is largely a relic from a bygone era. I guarantee you that what I listen to most days is far less familiar to the average music fan than most of the BCB100.
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby funky_nomad » 17 May 2010, 16:13

zphage wrote:great joke played upon its buyers/fans

Those wacky Krauts, eh? :roll:
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 16:15

funky_nomad wrote:
zphage wrote:great joke played upon its buyers/fans

Those wacky Krauts, eh? :roll:


:?: no, not particularly
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby ConnyOlivetti » 17 May 2010, 16:34

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Favorite tracks?

I know I'll get raked over the coals for saying it, but I truly don't get how anyone listens to this stuff for pleasure. I mean I get all f the arguments about their influence and can certainly give them their credit on that score (unless it is takn to a foolish extreme - such as last month when it was argued here that they eclipse Ray Charles in influence). But I don't get why their actual music is so beloved in these quarters - then again folks here love Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Jethro Tull - so I suppose I should not be shocked.

I can learn to accept that people like things that have absolutely no appeal to me. But am I 100% alone in this? Is there a single BCBer other than me who doesn't rate these guys?


stay on the topic please,
are you talking about liking them or rating them?

maybe its my bad english, but for me, if you rate something, you get all the arguments about their influence, and if you like them, well then you enjoy the music.
First you say you have trouble understanding how anyone can listen to them with pleasure, then you ask if you are the only one who does not rate them?
I'm confused!

sorry for that
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Bungo the Mungo » 17 May 2010, 16:39

zphage wrote:
funky_nomad wrote:
zphage wrote:great joke played upon its buyers/fans

Those wacky Krauts, eh? :roll:


:?: no, not particularly


:lol:

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 May 2010, 16:47

ConnyOlivetti wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Favorite tracks?

I know I'll get raked over the coals for saying it, but I truly don't get how anyone listens to this stuff for pleasure. I mean I get all f the arguments about their influence and can certainly give them their credit on that score (unless it is takn to a foolish extreme - such as last month when it was argued here that they eclipse Ray Charles in influence). But I don't get why their actual music is so beloved in these quarters - then again folks here love Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Jethro Tull - so I suppose I should not be shocked.

I can learn to accept that people like things that have absolutely no appeal to me. But am I 100% alone in this? Is there a single BCBer other than me who doesn't rate these guys?


stay on the topic please,
are you talking about liking them or rating them?

maybe its my bad english, but for me, if you rate something, you get all the arguments about their influence, and if you like them, well then you enjoy the music.
First you say you have trouble understanding how anyone can listen to them with pleasure, then you ask if you are the only one who does not rate them?
I'm confused!

sorry for that
bad monday! :oops:


We simply see the word "rate" differently. I can acknowledge the influence of something without measuring it as something exceptional. In my mind when you rate something, you think highly of it.
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby ConnyOlivetti » 17 May 2010, 17:20

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
ConnyOlivetti wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Favorite tracks?

I know I'll get raked over the coals for saying it, but I truly don't get how anyone listens to this stuff for pleasure. I mean I get all f the arguments about their influence and can certainly give them their credit on that score (unless it is takn to a foolish extreme - such as last month when it was argued here that they eclipse Ray Charles in influence). But I don't get why their actual music is so beloved in these quarters - then again folks here love Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Jethro Tull - so I suppose I should not be shocked.

I can learn to accept that people like things that have absolutely no appeal to me. But am I 100% alone in this? Is there a single BCBer other than me who doesn't rate these guys?


stay on the topic please,
are you talking about liking them or rating them?

maybe its my bad english, but for me, if you rate something, you get all the arguments about their influence, and if you like them, well then you enjoy the music.
First you say you have trouble understanding how anyone can listen to them with pleasure, then you ask if you are the only one who does not rate them?
I'm confused!

sorry for that
bad monday! :oops:


We simply see the word "rate" differently. I can acknowledge the influence of something without measuring it as something exceptional. In my mind when you rate something, you think highly of it.


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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Quaco » 17 May 2010, 20:14

To me, there is an essential difference between TD and Kraftwerk. Oh there are many similarities, but TD is entirely an instrumental experience couched in an amorphous package, while much of the joy I get from Kraftwerk is the words and specific ideas. They're not just another band playing with synthesizers in the wake of TD. Much as I like TD, they are anything but specific and they do not interact with the real world in the same way as Hütter and co.
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 20:28

Quaco wrote:To me, there is an essential difference between TD and Kraftwerk. Oh there are many similarities, but TD is entirely an instrumental experience couched in an amorphous package, while much of the joy I get from Kraftwerk is the words and specific ideas. They're not just another band playing with synthesizers in the wake of TD. Much as I like TD, they are anything but specific and they do not interact with the real world in the same way as Hütter and co.


hmmm...

The first four TDream's are as groundbreaking as Floyd and Hendrix. Nobody else was using rock instruments in nontraditional ways for sheer sonic attack. The mid 70's sequencer based work was them becoming accessible, the pulse was their use of robotics that so anchors Kraftwerk.
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Sneelock » 17 May 2010, 20:31

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Favorite tracks?

I can learn to accept that people like things that have absolutely no appeal to me. But am I 100% alone in this? Is there a single BCBer other than me who doesn't rate these guys?


of course there are other BCBers who don't rate (meaning like) Kraftwerk. the question is, how many BCBers who don't rate (as in like) Kraftwerk are hanging out in the "top three tracks by Kraftwerk" thread?

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby Quaco » 17 May 2010, 20:59

zphage wrote:
Quaco wrote:To me, there is an essential difference between TD and Kraftwerk. Oh there are many similarities, but TD is entirely an instrumental experience couched in an amorphous package, while much of the joy I get from Kraftwerk is the words and specific ideas. They're not just another band playing with synthesizers in the wake of TD. Much as I like TD, they are anything but specific and they do not interact with the real world in the same way as Hütter and co.

hmmm...

The first four TDream's are as groundbreaking as Floyd and Hendrix. Nobody else was using rock instruments in nontraditional ways for sheer sonic attack. The mid 70's sequencer based work was them becoming accessible, the pulse was their use of robotics that so anchors Kraftwerk.

In essence, what I'm saying is that Kraftwerk had words and concepts while TD specialized in sort of a purer form of music (even though that changed over the years). That is a huge difference. This why I take issue with the idea that Kraftwerk are "essentially bubblegum Tangerine Dream". (And perhaps you meant it facetiously...) But believe what you like! I know by now I'll never convince you!
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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby KeithPratt » 17 May 2010, 21:08

Saying that Kraftwerk are like a poppy Tangerine Dream is to do both bands a massive disservice and is about as inaccurate you can get. One the one hand Froese's languid, new age escapist synthesizer soundscapes are completely opposite to the very real world that Kraftwerk sung about.

Get real.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 21:13

Quaco wrote:
zphage wrote:
Quaco wrote:To me, there is an essential difference between TD and Kraftwerk. Oh there are many similarities, but TD is entirely an instrumental experience couched in an amorphous package, while much of the joy I get from Kraftwerk is the words and specific ideas. They're not just another band playing with synthesizers in the wake of TD. Much as I like TD, they are anything but specific and they do not interact with the real world in the same way as Hütter and co.

hmmm...

The first four TDream's are as groundbreaking as Floyd and Hendrix. Nobody else was using rock instruments in nontraditional ways for sheer sonic attack. The mid 70's sequencer based work was them becoming accessible, the pulse was their use of robotics that so anchors Kraftwerk.

In essence, what I'm saying is that Kraftwerk had words and concepts while TD specialized in sort of a purer form of music (even though that changed over the years). That is a huge difference. This why I take issue with the idea that Kraftwerk are "essentially bubblegum Tangerine Dream". (And perhaps you meant it facetiously...) But believe what you like! I know by now I'll never convince you!


Hey Quaco
I don't discount what you are saying. It just the monolithic groupthink that only kraftwerkbowiebeachboysetc "created the world". That gets tiresome. Influences and influencing are multilayered and not always obvious.

Kraftwerk weren't in a vacuum Faust, Schnitzler, and Neu also were creating/reducing/theorizing. :)
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby der nister » 17 May 2010, 21:18

Poppycock wrote:Saying that Kraftwerk are like a poppy Tangerine Dream is to do both bands a massive disservice and is about as inaccurate you can get. One the one hand Froese's languid, new age escapist synthesizer soundscapes are completely opposite to the very real world that Kraftwerk sung about.

Get real.


I think you need to be better versed, new age Tdream came along at Force Majeure, 9 years, 11 albums, 2 major phases into T dream's career
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.

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Re: Your Top 3 tracks by Kraftwerk

Postby king feeb » 17 May 2010, 21:31

zphage wrote:Essentially bubblegum Tdream, who with their mid 70's albums, already penetrated African American market in US, before Kraftwerk.


I don't think that's true at all. Besides this extensive list of Kraftwerk borrowings in rap, dance music and electro-pop, my own personal experience working in record stores (1977-1985) showed that it was very common for buyers of funk/ dance music to also pick up Kraftwerk discs. I don't think there was any significant similar crossover for the Tangs... their influence seems to be a atavistic one, mostly on ambient/electronic acts from the 90s-00s (The Orb, Fennesz, Tim Hecker etc).

I'd be interested in any documented evidence to the contrary, though.
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