the Pink Floyd hate thread

[Snarfyguy]

Because there has been an increasing tendency on the boards for threads entitled "in praise of.." with the rejoinder that any negative comment is not wanted on the thread. This has meant that contrary positions have been essentially banned before they've even had a chance to be expressed.
Far from typifying a slew of negative threads, this thread is unusual in positing a strong critical position. Refreshingly so. Clearly a lot of people agree with JC's original premise, and their enthusiasm to explain why they do rather indicates to me they've not had much opportunity in the past to do so. And people largely haven't just said they're shit, but articulated why they find their music so dispiriting. Why don't you try to counter their arguments rather than denying that threads like this should exist or tying it in with some, in my view, spurious notion that it represents some dumbing down of the board.
Don't be put off JC, you start loads of threads on what you find exciting in music, you're quite entitled to start the ocassional one about what you don't like.

Good post.

I don't see any fundamental difference between opening a discussion by saying you like something and saying you dislike it. It's simply a solicitation of other people's views on the matter.

Asking for an explanation of why people like something seems to me like a perfectly valid gambit for a discussion.

[Prograstinator]

My first introduction to 'em was when Another Brick In The Wall was number 1. I am 35 by the way. And still, to this day, the thought of some middle class tosser writing songs & encouraging kids to tell Ver Man to stick their education makes me sick. That lyric coming from a man of Water's age & background is fuckin' embarrasing.
.

Absolutely. The idea of some privileged, university educated millionaire going into the East End and telling a load of deprived kids to sing "we don't need no education" is absolutely offensive on every level.

correct me if I'm wrong but - is another brick in the wall some kind of concept album about the establisment?

[Sneelock]

I love 'em. "Piper" through "Animals" deja vu. I feel like I've been here before!

why were they/are they so popular? I've got some ideas about that. they made good packages. from "dark side.." these albums are pretty much made to be listened to from beginning to end. the albums have good packages to look at while you listen to them. add some smoking material and you have a very persuasive presentation!

I think there's a type of intensive listening experience that many listeners first experience with Pink Floyd. Floyd fans can be model consumers! they feel some manner of loyalty and I think the marriage of packaging and product has a lot to do with it. oh, and let's not forget the smoking material.

[The Modernist]

My first introduction to 'em was when Another Brick In The Wall was number 1. I am 35 by the way. And still, to this day, the thought of some middle class tosser writing songs & encouraging kids to tell Ver Man to stick their education makes me sick. That lyric coming from a man of Water's age & background is fuckin' embarrasing.
.

Absolutely. The idea of some privileged, university educated millionaire going into the East End and telling a load of deprived kids to sing "we don't need no education" is absolutely offensive on every level.

correct me if I'm wrong but - is another brick in the wall some kind of concept album about the establisment?

Yeah I believe so. But I certainly thought of this song in separate terms to the album "concept" as well. Largely because it was released as a single, the first since the dim and distant Syd days (I believe..apologies if I've got that wrong).

[Prograstinator]

Because there has been an increasing tendency on the boards for threads entitled "in praise of.." with the rejoinder that any negative comment is not wanted on the thread. This has meant that contrary positions have been essentially banned before they've even had a chance to be expressed.
Far from typifying a slew of negative threads, this thread is unusual in positing a strong critical position. Refreshingly so. Clearly a lot of people agree with JC's original premise, and their enthusiasm to explain why they do rather indicates to me they've not had much opportunity in the past to do so. And people largely haven't just said they're shit, but articulated why they find their music so dispiriting. Why don't you try to counter their arguments rather than denying that threads like this should exist or tying it in with some, in my view, spurious notion that it represents some dumbing down of the board.
Don't be put off JC, you start loads of threads on what you find exciting in music, you're quite entitled to start the ocassional one about what you don't like.

Good post.

I don't see any fundamental difference between opening a discussion by saying you like something and saying you dislike it. It's simply a solicitation of other people's views on the matter.

Asking for an explanation of why people like something seems to me like a perfectly valid gambit for a discussion.

why should I mind seeing bands I like bitched about on the net. at least then i know there's a conversation taking place. I hate being told to respect people's opinions, it's the number one thing that makes modern life so boring.

[Quaco]

My first introduction to 'em was when Another Brick In The Wall was number 1. I am 35 by the way. And still, to this day, the thought of some middle class tosser writing songs & encouraging kids to tell Ver Man to stick their education makes me sick. That lyric coming from a man of Water's age & background is fuckin' embarrasing.
.

Not to be pedantic, but that song is part of a larger work based on Waters' experiences growing up. It may be simplistic, but it's meant to be, since it's coming from the mouth of a teenager.

The actual track, with the kids singing, can be extremely annoying at times, that much is true.

[Spenny]

My first introduction to 'em was when Another Brick In The Wall was number 1. I am 35 by the way. And still, to this day, the thought of some middle class tosser writing songs & encouraging kids to tell Ver Man to stick their education makes me sick. That lyric coming from a man of Water's age & background is fuckin' embarrasing.
.

Absolutely. The idea of some privileged, university educated millionaire going into the East End and telling a load of deprived kids to sing "we don't need no education" is absolutely offensive on every level.

correct me if I'm wrong but - is another brick in the wall some kind of concept album about the establisment?

Maybe? But try telling that to some 8 year old kid from Salford or Hackney.

I know that wasn't their demographic at the time, but all i heard as a chart obsessive was some fella telling me tell my teachers to fuck off 'cos i didn't need no education.

[Prograstinator]

I love 'em. "Piper" through "Animals" deja vu. I feel like I've been here before!

why were they/are they so popular? I've got some ideas about that. they made good packages. from "dark side.." these albums are pretty much made to be listened to from beginning to end. the albums have good packages to look at while you listen to them. add some smoking material and you have a very persuasive presentation!

I think there's a type of intensive listening experience that many listeners first experience with Pink Floyd. Floyd fans can be model consumers! they feel some manner of loyalty and I think the marriage of packaging and product has a lot to do with it. oh, and let's not forget the smoking material.

Let's celebrate your ten thousandth post sneelock!

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*Paul cracks out the half bottle of champagne he was given at work today*

[Sneelock]

thanks Loveless!!

[Prograstinator]

thanks Loveless!!

I'M NOT LOVELESS!!

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[Sneelock]

oops!

[toomanyhatz]

I have, on several occasions, railed against the Negativity of John Coan. I am offended by anything that assumes anything about the personality or financial class of the listener based on their taste. I've found his summary dismissals of Bob Dylan, among others, to be cheap and childish. But I'm with him on this one.

Why? Because Roger Waters inspires rare hatred in me. People give Lennon a lot of crap about saying "Imagine no possesions" when he was a millionaire, but the difference is he used the word "imagine." He did not presume to speak for others. He was planting an idea. Waters of "Another Brick in the Wall" plants no ideas. He uses slogans and propagandizes. And does it with something utterly cheap and easy. The fact that he was himself well-educated is not the problem, the problem is that he appeals to people's petulant child rather than their intellect. And the worst part is, by using "we" often he tries to tell people he's "one of them" while simultaneously taking on an attitude of superiority.

Lyrically, I can think of nothing poetic he's ever done. Any similies or metaphors he uses are the cheapest and most obvious ones. In The Wall it's "the emotional walls we put up around us." In Animals the pig is piggish, the dogs act like dogs. Humans are asked to imagine our own piggish and doggish qualities. It's the kind of stuff I thought was very clever when I was about 15, as an adult I expect a little more, even from something as unsubtle as "concept albums."

And how about the melodicism of which people speak? I hear melodies in what Waters writes. However his melodies and singing have the common quality of whininess, not something that speaks to me. Think of how many endings have a falling note at the end, as if he was moaning about how miserable he is at the end. The music says "poor me, poor me, poor me." We are supposed to have compassion for the man who made millions complaining about his miserable life? Particularly when he continued to use the story of the one man in Floyd who really did give his life and sanity up for the music, and didn't see anything near the money?

That said, every piece of Floyd music with Syd on it is great. And I'm fine with them up until Dark Side. I even like some, though post-Syd, Rick Wright is my favorite songwriter in the Floyd. I have no complaints with anyone's playing, including Waters' bass playing, which is sometimes excellent. I even understand why people like them. It just (for the most part, anyway) has no place in my life.

[Jon K]

My first introduction to 'em was when Another Brick In The Wall was number 1. I am 35 by the way. And still, to this day, the thought of some middle class tosser writing songs & encouraging kids to tell Ver Man to stick their education makes me sick. That lyric coming from a man of Water's age & background is fuckin' embarrasing.
.

Absolutely. The idea of some privileged, university educated millionaire going into the East End and telling a load of deprived kids to sing "we don't need no education" is absolutely offensive on every level.

Well using that as a rule of thumb then writing about any kind of deprivation is bad. The kids were paid in a sense in that the school where they went received a cash sum from the Floyd. The kids also got a payment much later but no one forced the kids to do it. They were all willing. I do think this class thing is getting silly now.It is no different than getting kids or child actors to act out a role in a TV programme or film which is basically what those kids did when they sang on Another Brick. I seriously doubt Roger Waters deliberately thought about exploiting working class kids

[Matt Wilson]

I dunno, but I'm thinking since Dave's been getting laid more lately he's been in a worse mood.

Does not compute.

[Quaco]

Lyrically, I can think of nothing poetic he's ever done. Any similies or metaphors he uses are the cheapest and most obvious ones. In The Wall it's "the emotional walls we put up around us." In Animals the pig is piggish, the dogs act like dogs. Humans are asked to imagine our own piggish and doggish qualities. It's the kind of stuff I thought was very clever when I was about 15, as an adult I expect a little more, even from something as unsubtle as "concept albums."

I think he's done some nice lyrics, especially in the early days, but the obviousness of these big concepts (a wall, animals as personalities, darkness equalling insanity) is a fair criticism and goes a long way toward explaining Pink Floyd's massive popularity, I think.

[Jon K]

Waters of "Another Brick in the Wall" plants no ideas. He uses slogans and propagandizes. And does it with something utterly cheap and easy. The fact that he was himself well-educated is not the problem, the problem is that he appeals to people's petulant child rather than their intellect. And the worst part is, by using "we" often he tries to tell people he's "one of them" while simultaneously taking on an attitude of superiority.

Lyrically, I can think of nothing poetic he's ever done. Any similies or metaphors he uses are the cheapest and most obvious ones. In The Wall it's "the emotional walls we put up around us." In Animals the pig is piggish, the dogs act like dogs. Humans are asked to imagine our own piggish and doggish qualities. It's the kind of stuff I thought was very clever when I was about 15, as an adult I expect a little more, even from something as unsubtle as "concept albums."

It's only an album and basically Waters is a pop/rock star do we have to expect any more from these people other than to be entertained by them and what they call their art

[Sneelock]

I never liked "Another Brick in the Wall" very much but I'm surprised to see it singled out as some sort of travesty.
it's just a dumb song, isn't it? I always hated how "disco" the guitar sounded.

[The Modernist]

Well using that as a rule of thumb then writing about any kind of deprivation is bad. The kids were paid in a sense in that the school where they went received a cash sum from the Floyd. The kids also got a payment much later but no one forced the kids to do it. They were all willing. I do think this class thing is getting silly now.It is no different than getting kids or child actors to act out a role in a TV programme or film which is basically what those kids did when they sang on Another Brick. I seriously doubt Roger Waters deliberately thought about exploiting working class kids

I'm sure he didn't either, but the end result is that it manages to be patronising and ill-judged. I'm sure Lennon was sincere when he wrote "imagine no possesssions" as well but filming himself singing such a line in a massive mansion is obviously going to to have unfortunate ironies not intended by the author.

[The Modernist]

I always hated how "disco" the guitar sounded.

The rhythm guitar riff is actually the bit of the record I like!

[Snarfyguy]

thanks Loveless!!

I'M NOT LOVELESS!!

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What are you doing with his avatar?