Why was John Lennon cremated?

Do talk back
User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 01:47

Against his wishes. Yoko probably intends to auction the ashes on ebay sometime.


Lennon was extremely fearful of the practice of cremation, and despite this, Yoko chose to burn the Beatle. I’m sure she was aware of his feelings, because he had once wrote against the practice in a song.


According to the documentary, “The Real John Lennon,” none of his family in England were consulted about what to do with his remains. In fact, in his Will, only his son Sean is mentioned, nothing is said about Julian.

Former assistant, Frederic Seaman, against Yoko’s wishes, wrote an excellent book about John Lennon entitled, “The Last Days Of John Lennon.” In it he said, that MacDougal who was present at the cremation, said that John’s face was serene and calm up until it was time to go into the oven. Then suddenly it turned into a “pained, macabre grin,” "they" say due to rigor mortis.


There are conflicting stories as to what happened to his ashes. Some say Yoko scattered him on Strawberry Fields, others say she still has them.


http://www.morbid-curiosity.com/id91.htm
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
Charlie O.
Posts: 40774
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 19:53
Location: In-A-Badda-La-Wadda, bay-beh

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby Charlie O. » 23 Oct 2007, 01:56

Lennon was extremely fearful of the practice of cremation, and despite this, Yoko chose to burn the Beatle. I’m sure she was aware of his feelings, because he had once wrote against the practice in a song.


What song was that? "Please Freeze Me"?


Former assistant, Frederic Seaman, against Yoko’s wishes, wrote an excellent book about John Lennon entitled, “The Last Days Of John Lennon.” In it he said, that MacDougal who was present at the cremation, said that John’s face was serene and calm up until it was time to go into the oven. Then suddenly it turned into a “pained, macabre grin,” "they" say due to rigor mortis.


This is the same guy who stole a bunch of Lennon's stuff, including diaries? Sure, I'd take his word for anything.
Image

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 02:02

Deleted as double posted.
Last edited by beenieman on 23 Oct 2007, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 02:03

Deleted as triple posted. Somehow.
Last edited by beenieman on 23 Oct 2007, 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 02:04

beenieman wrote:Lennon was extremely fearful of the practice of cremation, and despite this, Yoko chose to burn the Beatle. I’m sure she was aware of his feelings, because he had once wrote against the practice in a song.


Charlie O. wrote:What song was that? "Please Freeze Me"?


I don't know. The article didn't say. He was with a gravedigger on the cover of Abbey Road. That's pretty conclusive.


beenieman wrote: Former assistant, Frederic Seaman, against Yoko’s wishes, wrote an excellent book about John Lennon entitled, “The Last Days Of John Lennon.” In it he said, that MacDougal who was present at the cremation, said that John’s face was serene and calm up until it was time to go into the oven. Then suddenly it turned into a “pained, macabre grin,” "they" say due to rigor mortis.


Charlie O. wrote: This is the same guy who stole a bunch of Lennon's stuff, including diaries? Sure, I'd take his word for anything.


He liberated them. Not stole. You can't steal from people like John & Yoko.

You gotta admit that's a good line of Seaman's whether it's true or not.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 02:14

goldwax wrote:Cremation is overwhelmingly practiced in Japan, so it's not surprising that Yoko had it done, though it is unfortunate that it was apparently against John's wishes.

An American friend of mine's father was in Japan concluding a business deal, and the night it was signed, went out drinking with his new Japanese partners. He died of a heart attack while celebrating, and while the company was very good about contacting his widow in America, paying for various expenses and even sending someone from the company to the US to deliver the remains in person, they had the body cremated first. They didn't even think twice about it.


1. He died in New York not Japan
2. Yoko must have been aware of his wishes

I bet she tries to sell those ashes sometime. She'll say it's what John would have wanted.

More fool her though.

She'd have got a better price on the bones.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
take5_d_shorterer
Posts: 5742
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 23:09
Location: photo. by Andor Kertesz, Hung.

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 23 Oct 2007, 03:50

Question for beenieman about claims in his opening post


beenieman wrote:[thread title: Why was John Lennon cremated?]Against his wishes. Yoko probably intends to auction the ashes on ebay sometime.


Lennon was extremely fearful of the practice of cremation, and despite this, Yoko chose to burn the Beatle. I’m sure she was aware of his feelings, because he had once wrote against the practice in a song.


http://www.morbid-curiosity.com/id91.htm


You make the claim that Lennon did not want to be cremated. How do we know this? Is there something beyond an internet site that supports this idea? I couldn't find anything.

Also what is this song that Lennon wrote on the subject? It would be nice to know the title and the lyrics since they are supposedly on the subject.

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 03:53

Deleted as this thread keeps double posting edits!!
Last edited by beenieman on 23 Oct 2007, 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 03:57

take5_d_shorterer wrote:
You make the claim that Lennon did not want to be cremated. How do we know this? Is there something beyond an internet site that supports this idea? I coudn't find anything.

Also what is this song that Lennon wrote on the subject? It would be nice to know the title and the lyrics since they are supposedly on the subject.


I know no more than what was on this site which is why I attributed these claims to it rather than make them myself.

The documentary "The Real John Lennon" presumably supports these claims though.

I like what it says about Yoko though.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 04:01

Here's more support, though it does not tell us the song the original article refers to.

According to controversial biographer Albert Goldman, "Lennon had a horror of cremation, a practice that he inveighed against and once proposed to protest in a song. Despite his aversion, his widow arranged to have his body burned." And from the Channel 4 documentary "The Real John Lennon", it is clear that none of his family in England were consulted about the perfunctory disposal of his body.

John's 5 year old son Sean wasn't told the awful news until the morning of 10 December. Understandably distraught, he asked to see his father one last time, so Lennon's assistant Fred Seaman rang security man Douglas MacDougal at Ferncliff Mortuary and asked him to hold off on the cremation. It was too late.

But it gets worse.

According to Seaman's account in his book "The last days of John Lennon", MacDougal told him that John's face had been serene and calm until just before the body entered the oven, when suddenly it contorted into a "pained, macabre grin" apparently due to rigor mortis. MacDougal had also warned Yoko a couple of months before the murder that the Lennons were running crazy risks by making their daily routine public and not having proper bodyguards.

Maybe true, maybe not, but I believe there was something profoundly sinister about John's reclusive final years with the Astrology obsessed Yoko Ono. George Harrison once said of visits to the Dakota, "I always felt there was something more that he wanted to say but didn't feel able to. There was a look in his eyes." Look at some pictures of Lennon in the studio not long before his death at http://www.vintagebb.com/lennon.html He doesn't look like a well man to me.

That's about it. All of the above information (apart from the final paragraph, which is sheer conjecture) is freely available from the sources I mentioned.

Best wishes, James.


http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/l/John%20Lennon/john_lennon.htm

This site also says that Yoko got the ashes.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
Charlie O.
Posts: 40774
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 19:53
Location: In-A-Badda-La-Wadda, bay-beh

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby Charlie O. » 23 Oct 2007, 04:18

According to Seaman's account in his book "The last days of John Lennon", MacDougal told him that John's face had been serene and calm until just before the body entered the oven, when suddenly it contorted into a "pained, macabre grin" apparently due to rigor mortis.


The description "pained, macabre grin" is deeply peculiar. And why would rigor mortis set in two months after he was killed?

Just a coupla bullshitters doin' what they do, if you ask me.
Image

User avatar
take5_d_shorterer
Posts: 5742
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 23:09
Location: photo. by Andor Kertesz, Hung.

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 23 Oct 2007, 04:20

beenieman wrote:
take5_d_shorterer wrote:
You [beenieman] make the claim that Lennon did not want to be cremated. How do we know this? Is there something beyond an internet site that supports this idea? I couldn't find anything.

Also what is this song that Lennon wrote on the subject? It would be nice to know the title and the lyrics since they are supposedly on the subject.


I know no more than what was on this site which is why I attributed these claims to it rather than make them myself.


The thread title that you came up with is: Why was John Lennon cremated?
The first phrase you have in the thread is: Against his wishes.

Now you're saying that you're not making these claims yourself.

beenieman wrote:The documentary "The Real John Lennon" presumably supports these claims though.



According to the site that you linked to, it says:
According to the documentary, “The Real John Lennon,” none of his family in England were consulted about what to do with his remains. In fact, in his Will, only his son Sean is mentioned, nothing is said about Julian.


This doesn't address the main question I asked, which was--how do you know that John Lennon didn't want to be cremated?

beenieman wrote:I like what it says about Yoko though.


Look. If the thread had been, "I'm beenieman, and there are some things I want like to believe about John Lennon and Yoko Ono whether or not these things are true," that would be one thing, but the thread isn't set up as a personal opinion thread. It's positing that Lennon didn't want to be cremated.

I'd like to know how you know this.

User avatar
Charlie O.
Posts: 40774
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 19:53
Location: In-A-Badda-La-Wadda, bay-beh

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby Charlie O. » 23 Oct 2007, 04:26

Well, let's not be too hard on beenie. He's a good guy. He read something that seemed to have at least a couple of corroborations behind it, and he believed it. I've done that; I'm sure we all have.

But me, I'm definitely sceptical about this - especially given the quality of the sources.
Image

User avatar
di Maio
Posts: 5531
Joined: 16 Feb 2006, 18:57
Location: Down in Dixieland loudly playing a silver fiddle, minding the Man

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby di Maio » 23 Oct 2007, 04:32

What does it matter? A corpse is a corpse of course of course and no one can talk to a corpse of course that is of course unless the corpse is the famous Mr. Winston

User avatar
take5_d_shorterer
Posts: 5742
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 23:09
Location: photo. by Andor Kertesz, Hung.

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 23 Oct 2007, 04:35

"Support"

beenieman wrote:Here's more support, though it does not tell us the song the original article refers to.

According to controversial biographer Albert Goldman, "Lennon had a horror of cremation, a practice that he inveighed against and once proposed to protest in a song. Despite his aversion, his widow arranged to have his body burned." And from the Channel 4 documentary "The Real John Lennon", it is clear that none of his family in England were consulted about the perfunctory disposal of his body.
...


http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/l/John%20Lennon/john_lennon.htm

This site also says that Yoko got the ashes.


I saw this also as well when I looked around on the internet.

Trying to support a case by calling Albert Goldman to the witness stand is...well, the term "scraping the bottom of the barrel" comes to mind.

I don't mind that Goldman says uncomplimentary things about famous figures. I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is the sort of indulgent speculation that he dabbles in.

Here's a passage that Goldman wrote about Elvis Presley:

Like most country boys of his time, he was uncircumcised...he saw his beauty disfigured by an ugly hillbilly pecker...


There are a few people who can turn indulgent speculation into art. Albert Goldman is not one of them.

I would be interested in knowing what Elvis thought about his penis. I have absolutely no interest in knowing what Albert Goldman thought about Elvis's penis. None whatsoever.

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 04:57

Post the shock/horror reaction to Goldman's books the facts have generally been supported haven't they?

His speculations are sometimes insane but not his gleaning of facts.

The world had a very different picture of Elvis before Goldman's book.

As regards Lennon there does not seem to be a lot of debate of facts re. Goldman's comments on Lennon but a lot of releuctance to confront them by his worshippers.

And yes I read & reread the thread title and my opening line before responding to you earlier and wondered about qualifying my response accordingly.

I decided you would not be so pedantic as to question this as clearly my source was the quoted article and I clearly have no personal connection to any of the parties involved. My bad.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a pretty good dig at Yoko here shall we?

And yeah the 2 months later rigor mortis comment made me laugh when I posted this too.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
Charlie O.
Posts: 40774
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 19:53
Location: In-A-Badda-La-Wadda, bay-beh

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby Charlie O. » 23 Oct 2007, 05:07

beenieman wrote:Post the shock/horror reaction to Goldman's books the facts have generally been supported haven't they?


I don't think the more outlandish ones have been. They've been quoted a lot, that's for sure, but I've never seen them backed up. And I can think of at least one - Sam Phillips supposedly telling Marion Keisker "If I could find a white man that sang like a nigger, I'd make a million dollars!" - that was vehemently denied by both parties in the alleged conversation. That "n" word was "Little Albert"'s racism, not Sam's.
Image

User avatar
beenieman
Posts: 15400
Joined: 20 Jul 2003, 21:43

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby beenieman » 23 Oct 2007, 05:09

I'm surrounded by killjoys :lol:

I'm going back to posting on Wikipedia.
One night, an evil spirit held me down
I could not make one single sound
Jah told me, 'Son, use the word'
And now I'm as free as a bird

User avatar
Charlie O.
Posts: 40774
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 19:53
Location: In-A-Badda-La-Wadda, bay-beh

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby Charlie O. » 23 Oct 2007, 05:10

:lol:
Image

no one

Re: Why was John Lennon cremated?

Postby no one » 23 Oct 2007, 05:27

beenieman wrote:Let's not let the facts get in the way of a pretty good dig at Yoko here shall we?



wow, you and i keep finding ourselves on opposing ends of things, don't we, my friend? :D

i like Yoko

i'm wondering what "Astrology-obsessed" has to do with anything...this would be laughable to me if its ignorance didn't contribute to so much social stigma against people who happen to love Astrology, like me....what the connection between that and cremation is i would like explained to me, too......something was sinister about his final years with her?.....uh, such as??......he wanted to take a break from the world and be a shut-in, bake bread and sing songs to his baby all day and all night long.....he wanted to do parenting the way he saw as right, rather than make the same mistakes and have the same regrets he had with Julian.....how is that sinister?

Ferncliff Cemetery is right near me, by the way.....a lot of celebs are buried there or were cremated there, too

so the body's face distorted as it was entering the oven......the OVEN which is HOT.....heat does weird things to substances, doesn't it??....i can just picture the guy wishing he could get publicity around himself because he was the last person to see John's body, he needed to embellish it a little so he'd get more attention......this is my guess, anyway.....